欢迎大家来到 Welcome to the commentary track
《寒枝雀静》的评论音轨 for A Pigeon Sat on a Branch Reflecting on Existence.
我有幸请到本片导演罗伊·安德森在此一同共赏 I'm joined by the filmmake- Roy Andersson.
谢谢 Thank you.
我得说这第一个场景让我想到了上学时学校郊游 I have to say that this first scene reminded me of my school field trips
我们去哥德堡的自然历史博物馆参观 那里有一头很有名的鲸鱼 to the Natural History Museum in Gothenburg, with its famous whale.
- 你也有这样经历吧? － 哦 当然 难以磨灭的记忆 - Do you also have those memories? - Oh yes, they are indelible.
- 哥德堡的那头鲸鱼... － 还有那头大象 - The whale in Gothenburg... - And the elephant.
你还可以看到装在玻璃罐里的连体婴标本 You also had these Siamese twins in a glass jar.
整个陈列室里放着各种奇怪的东西 An entire cabinet with all kinds of obscure stuff.
他们还在鲸鱼肚子里弄了一间咖啡厅 They actually had a cafeteria inside the whale.
我也去过 虽然比你年纪小一点 不过我也去看过 I've been there. I'm a bit younger than you, but I've been there.
那间咖啡厅只在选举日才开放 It's only open on election day.
这个场景里没有鲸鱼 但我们有一只正在沉思的鸽子... We don't have a whale here, but we have a pigeon that's reflecting...
我正想问问这个片名 向观众们解读一下 I want to ask about the title. We have to explain that.
我之前有说过 片名的灵感来自老勃鲁盖尔的一幅画作 I've said it before. I was inspired by a painting by Bruegel.
他是16到17世纪一位弗拉德斯画派的画家 He was a Flemish painter in the 16th or 17th century.
他在弗兰德斯期间画了很多乡间生活的作品 He painted peasant life in Flanders during that time.
其中一幅画里有一群猎人（译注，即画作《雪中猎人》） There's this one painting where a group of hunters
狩猎归来 没有捕获到猎物 are returning from a hunt, having searched for game.
他们是空手而归 They return home, having failed.
回到了村庄里 They get back to their village
而画中有几棵树上 站着几只鸟 and up in the trees,there are these birds.
不是鸽子是鸟 这些鸟在观察村里的人都在做什么 Not pigeons, but birds observing what the village people are doing.
我觉得这幅画很奇妙 它们不是鸽子而是鸦科的 I thought it was amazing.They're not pigeons, but rather corvids.
但那都无所谓 总之就是树上的鸟 But that doesn't matter.There are birds in the trees,
俯视着一无所获归来的人们 looking down on people returning from a failed hunt.
还有一些人在做准备功夫 看起来像是春天 You see people preparing things. It looks like it's springtime
他们正在为过冬而做准备 and they're preparing for winter.
老勃鲁盖尔精细地描绘出了弗兰德斯的乡村生活 Flemish peasant life, precisely painted by Bruegel.
它没有去表达“人生多么艰难” 而只是表现出“做人” It doesn't say "about the difficulty of being human", just "about being human",
但你似乎经常会拍出“做人很难”这一点 but you've often made it seem like it's difficult to be human.
是啊... 实际上在这部影片中我借演员之口说 Yeah... I actually had an actor say the line:
“做人不是容易的事” 我是这么觉得 不容易 "It's not easy being human." I'll stick to that. It's not easy being human.
或者说，也不难的? But not difficult, either?
这得看你怎么衡量，什么地方艰难 什么地方容易 If you try to weigh what's difficult against what's easy,
我想艰难的部分会占压倒性的比重 I think the difficulties pose the heaviest burden.
遗憾的是 轻松的时刻还是相对少得多 There are fewer easy moments than difficult moments, unfortunately.
这看起来就像个贴片的小短片 This feels almost like a pre-movie in the movie.
影片中这三个关于死亡的场景 You have these three scenes about death.
这是你随着年龄增长越来越多思考的东西吗? Is that something you think more and more about as you grow older?
你有认真地审视死亡么? Do you contemplate death?
是的 说实话这一点我确实比以前想得多了 Yes, to be honest, I'm starting to think about it, more than before.
你在年轻的时候不会去思考这些 It's not something you think about when you're younger.
但人是越来越老朽了 But it's creeping ever closer now.
有一首诗 应该是毕尔格·肖贝格（瑞典诗人）的诗 There's this poem,I think by Birger Sjöberg.
其中就写道“死亡的时刻 终于到来了” "You've come at last,the minute of death."
死亡的那一刻越来越近 That minute is getting closer.
但它不再让我感到恐惧了 But it doesn't scare me anymore.
如果你度过了相对圆满的一生 If you've lived a reasonably full life,
就该对死亡心存感激 我并不惧怕失去此生 you should be grateful for that. I'm not afraid of leaving this life.
活得太久也可能会非常枯燥乏味 It could be very dull in the long run.
谁会想长生不老呢? 佛莱蒂·魔克瑞（皇后乐队主唱）不也这么唱过么 Who wants to live forever? Freddie Mercury sang that.
我甚至认为 长生不死是最严厉的惩罚 I've even had this notion that the worst punishment would be to live forever.
这话听起来有点极端 但那真是你能想象到的最糟糕的事了 It may sound harsh, but living forever is about the worst thing imaginable.
这话... 怎讲呢... Well... Tell me...
听起来很荒谬 但事实如此 It sounds absurd, but it's true.
这个场景看起来很眼熟 你的布景真的非常棒 There's something familiar here, looking at your amazing sceneries
有时人看起来很苍白 有时没那么苍白 and the sometimes pale people. These ones aren't all that pale,
但这个场景看上去确实很熟悉 but this is a scene that seems very familiar.
而且... And...
能感觉到一些... 不知道是不是有手足之争的意味 There's something here... I don't know if it's sibling rivalry.
还有一丝贪婪的意味 You also get a sense of greed here.
这是来自你的亲身经历吗? Is this something you've experienced yourself?
对... Yeah...
家里有人生病了 然后你去探望 A family member is ill and you're coming to visit.
我不知道这是不是瑞典人的特色 I don't know if it's particularly Swedish.
希望全世界都是如此吧 去探望一位濒临死亡的亲人 I hope it's universal, visiting a family member close to death.
他们三人的母亲即将死去 The mother of these three siblings is close to death.
母亲让女儿把她的提包带来 She got the daughter to bring her purse,
里面有一些首饰 还有... which contains jewelry and some...
- 首饰... - 还有钱 - Jewelry... - And money.
这两兄弟并不是嫉妒他们的姐妹 It's not like the brothers are jealous of their sister.
而是担心会被医院的人偷走 They're afraid the staff will steal things.
“我们不能把包留在这儿 信封里有7万块钱呢” "We can't leave this here. It's SEK 70,000 in an envelope."
是她卖掉车得来的钱 Cash from selling her car.
另外还有一些袖扣和金扣子 Then there are some cuff links and gold buttons.
主要他们就是不放心医院的人 It's mainly that they're suspicious of the staff.
并不是为了包里值钱的东西而争吵 They're not squabbling over the valuables in the purse,
但我很喜欢这个场景... but I like this scene...
这是少数几个经过重拍的场景之一 It's one of the few scenes that needed a re-shoot.
之前拍的不是很对味 但现在的就很好 It didn't turn out right,but now it's great.
我之前就在想... I was thinking...
你经常会重拍一些镜头 算是个完美主义者 You often do re-shoots, you're a perfectionist and all that.
总是在一些小细节上你会说：“这个不好 咱们再来一次” It's often the little things that make you say: "No good, let's do it again".
让我不满意的地方通常就是时机拿捏 What can make me unhappy is often the timing,
念台词的时机不对 when you get the lines at the wrong time.
他们都非常投入 台词才能恰如其分地说出 They're really into the scene here, and that's when you get the lines right.
如果时机不对 那就全变味了 If not, you can get it all wrong.
在一个有点怪诞的场景下要表现出某种幽默 The kind of humor you have in this somewhat grotesque scene
就看你的时机对不对 really depends on the timing being right.
这一段我很喜欢 I love this.
“妈妈 你也会上天堂的 你一直都很善良 就像爸爸一样” "Mom, you'll also get into heaven. You've been nice, just like Dad."
“他就在那儿等着你呢” 我觉得这几句台词很妙 "He's waiting for you there." I think the lines are amazing.
接着就发生了这怪诞的一幕... Then there's this almost bizarre...
这台词就像贝克特的作品一样的妙 “他在等着你呢” That line is every bit as good as Beckett."He's waiting for you."
这样是行不通的 你在天堂里会有新首饰的 It's not how it works. You'll get new jewelry in heaven.
这些你又带不走! 这样是没用的! You can't take these with you! It doesn't work like that!
真是绝妙的台词啊 Amazing lines.
抱歉我这么直白地夸自己 I'm sorry about praising myself.
我在瑞典的一场媒体放映看到这段时... This scene... When I watched it at a press showing here in Sweden,
所有人都笑出了声 it really brought out laughter.
那这个场景你是怎么想到的? How do you come up with a scene like this?
渡轮上一个男人买了份鲜虾三明治和一杯啤酒 A man on a ferry has bought a shrimp sandwich and a beer.
结果他犯了心脏病死了 Then he has a heart attack and dies.
那个女人就问：“这怎么办? 都已经付过钱了“ And the woman says: "What do we do with this? It's already paid for."
你是怎么想的...? 还能记得么? How did you think...? Do you remember this?
怎么想出了这样一个场景的? How do you come up with your tableaux?
这些想法从哪儿来? 我真的不知道 Where do you get things from? I don't really know.
我只能说是... I can only say that it's...
"他都已经付钱了" 好像是一个问题一样 "He's already paid," like that's a problem.
“这东西有人已经付钱了 现在咱们可怎么办啊” "Someone already paid for this,what do we do with it now?"
我真的很喜欢生活中那些尴尬时刻 I really love the awkwardness in life.
人们的那种尴尬 我不知道是不是只在哥德堡才这样 People's awkwardness.I don't know if it's typical of Gothenburg,
但“尴尬”这个词在那儿的意义是很明确的 but the word "awkward" has a very clear meaning there.
这一段我想表达的就是 “尴尬” It's exactly what I wrote here - "awkwardness".
我喜欢人们这种十分尴尬的感觉 说“现在该怎么办啊” I love how it's so very human to be awkward. "What do we do now?"
接着有个人说他很乐意把啤酒喝了 Then we have the man who gladly takes the beer.
这里反映了瑞典人很贪婪的一面 It's a reflection of just how greedy Swedes are.
瑞典人永远对喝酒这件事充满热望 Swedes have a burning desire to drink alcohol.
- 觉得是人生奖赏 - 没错 - A bonus in life. - Exactly.
碰上喝啤酒的机会 瑞典人是绝不会放过的 No Swede will pass on the chance of getting a beer.
还是免费喝! For free!
我想问一下关于指导方面的 I want to ask about the direction.
我记得在《二楼传来的歌声》中那个女人被锯成两半的场景 I remember the lady-sawed-in-half scene in Songs.
你是怎么来调度群众演员的? How do you handle your background actors?
怎么来掌控这样一个大场面? How do you control a large scene like this?
作为导演 我的职责就是让每个人有安全感 As the director, it's my job to make everyone feel safe.
我想他们做到了 他们信任我 得到信任就是我的职责 I think they do. They trust me. It's my job to make them trust me.
我想让每个人发挥到最好 获得最完美的场景 I want the best possible result for everyone and a perfect scene.
我觉得群演中的每个人都很信任我 I feel like I have the trust of everyone in the background.
我们尽力做到最好 每个人都发挥到位 We try to make it as good as possible,and everyone gets it right.
主要就是让他们安静地看着 眼神不要四处乱瞄 It's mainly about watching quietly and not letting their eyes wander.
没错 如果出了错 我们就再来一遍 直到满意为止 Exactly, and if it's wrong, we'll do it again, until we get it right.
这一段也很棒... This is also great...
这部影片中有几个固定角色 There are several recurring characters in the movie.
这是其中最悲哀的一个 This is one of the saddest.
我觉得这一段是对渴望性亲密的一个绝佳诠释 I think this is an amazing depiction of longing for sexual intimacy.
同时也包含着一丝悲伤 There's also an element of grief here.
没错 我当时就想... That's true, and I thought it was...
在这部影片中我们让女性的欲望占到了一定比重 I really liked how we made room for female desires in the movie,
比你们在之前作品中看到的要多 more than you're used to seeing.
其实本来也可以是一个男性舞蹈教练 It could very well have been a male dance instructor
喜欢上了一位女舞者 fondling the female dancers.
但我们展现了一个饥渴的女人 我觉得很棒 Here we have a woman getting frisky. I think it's great.
你在这里也加入了舞蹈的展示 更加剧了张力 You also have the drama of the dance, adding a charged atmosphere.
你的灵感是什么? 还是说突然想到的? Was that a given or did it suddenly come to you?
“我现在想到了 就来一堂弗拉明戈舞蹈课吧” "Now I know. I'll make it a flamenco lesson."
不是 自从我去了一趟法国的拉罗谢尔之后 No, the flamenco lesson has been in my thoughts
就一直有弗拉明戈舞的这个设想 ever since a visit to La Rochelle in France
那是在《二楼传来的歌声》首映时 for the premiere of Songs from the Second Floor.
我去拉罗谢尔参加一个电影节 I went to La Rochelle for a festival there.
晚上出去散步 偶然听到有人在排练弗拉明戈舞 I went out at night and happened to overhear a flamenco rehearsal.
我听到舞蹈老师正在演示舞步 I heard the instructor demonstrating the steps.
然后舞者们跟着重复一遍 那感觉真是美妙 Then the group would repeat the steps. I thought it was really beautiful,
人们可以发明出舞步和整套动作 that humans can come up with dance steps and dance routines.
让生活更加丰富多彩了 It really adds to the richness of life.
弗拉明戈舞... 真的很美妙 Flamenco... It's amazing.
所以这个场景里他们就是在学习弗拉明戈? So these are people learning flamenco?
对 他们学的是弗拉明戈 Yes, they're learning flamenco.
实际上... 这真的很有爱 The fact... It's really lovely.
她是个职业演员 并不是弗拉明戈老师或是舞者 She's really an actor, not a flamenco instructor or dancer,
但她为这个角色专门去学了弗拉明戈 她很棒 but she learned flamenco for this role, and she was great.
而他呢 现在成了皇家歌剧院的台柱子 And he's now a principal dancer at the Opera,
同时还是莫斯科大剧院芭蕾舞团的主要舞者 and even a principal dancer at the Bolshoi in Moscow.
是欧洲数一数二的舞蹈演员 He's actually one of Europe's foremost dancers.
在一些人功成名就之前 跟他们合作一把感觉很不错 It's great having gotten someone before their career really took off.
很棒 我对这里的布景也非常满意 It's great, and I'm very happy with the scenery.
- 这是你们自己搭建的么? - 对 所有一切都是我们搭建的 - Did you build it here? - Yes, we built everything here.
人们真该好好听听你以前的评论音轨 People should really listen to your earlier commentary tracks,
不过你们搭建这个房间花了多久? but how long did it take to build this room?
花了两三个星期 It took about two-three weeks.
通常在布景没搭好前 我们先按基本想法进行排练 We often rehearse before the scenery is done, with the basic idea.
然后搭好布景 找演员 Then we build it and find the actors.
再进行排练 然后拍摄 之后拆掉布景 Then we rehearse, film it and tear it down.
大概... 平均下来每个场景花一个月时间 It takes about... On average, it's one month per scene.
- 每月一个场景? - 对 - One month per scene? - Yes.
这个布景花了大约三周 但其他一些场景要超过一个月 This took maybe three weeks, but other scenes took over a month.
- 这段很不错 - 是啊 非常精彩 - This is nice. - Yes, amazing.
这个场景是个连结点 他从里面走了出来 This scene ties things together, he's coming out here.
我们在这一段听到了整部电影的关键台词 Here we hear the key line in this movie.
这句话在这里第一次出现 而且感觉很好... We hear it the first time in this scene and it's great to hear...
在《你还活着》里面有那句“明天又是新的一天” In ”You, the Living“it was "Tomorrow is a new day",
给人一种充满希望又挺吓人的感觉 something that is both promising and almost terrifying.
这部影片里就是：“很高兴听到你过得不错” Here it's:"Nice to hear you're doing well."
这句话是怎么来的? Where does that come from?
哦 老天... 就是关于人生嘛... Oh god... it's about being human...
你每天庸庸碌碌活着 不去想还剩下多少时间 You go through life not thinking about how much time you have left.
生活中充满着生机 但最终走向死亡的挣扎 Life is full of life and vitality,and a death struggle at the end.
我就是觉得这句话很美好... I think it's just so beautiful...
只要你活着 就会牵挂家人的健康... As long as you live, you worry about family members' health...
- 和幸福 - 对 幸福 - Well-being. - Yeah, well-being.
“很高兴听到你过得不错” 这句话我自己也说过无数次 "Nice to hear you're doing well." I've said it countless times myself
也从我家人的口中听到它 and I've heard it from my own family.
你的孩子可能在地球的另一边 你打电话时就会说： Your kids can be halfway around the world and you talk on the phone:
”很高兴听到你过得不错“ "Nice to hear you're doing well."
但这句话是否已经失去了本身的意义和价值? Is it a line that eventually loses its meaning and worth?
对啊... Yeah...
现在就跟"你好"或是"你怎么样"没什么区别 It's pretty much like "Hello"or "How are you?"
话过三遍淡如水 Those are also lines that have been watered-down,
但还是存在某种意义的 but there's still some kind of substance to it.
“很高兴听到你过得不错” 我认为这句话很美好 "Nice to hear you're doing well." I think it's a beautiful line.
这句话是要表达关心 It's a line about caring.
- 而它不该被滥用? - 对 但随便说也没什么 - And it shouldn't be abused? - No, but it's okay to say it.
我很惊异于人们真的会对这句话走心 I'm surprised that people really took it to heart,
哪怕在其他国家 比如法国和意大利 even in other countries, like France and Italy.
“为什么要 ‘很高兴听到你过得不错' 啊?” "What's up with the line:'Nice to hear you're doing well'?"
我当时真的不懂这句话有什么值得上心的 I didn't really get what was remarkable about it.
这就是世界上最普通的一句话 It's like the most normal line in the world.
就像"你好"或者“再见”一样 It's just as normal as "Hello" or "Goodbye".
关键在于它出现在这些场景当中 It's about saying the lines in these pictures.
在画面中的这一刻说出来就是一种张力 It's the tension between the visual moment when it's said
成就这部电影 让它言之有物 and having it said that makes this a quality movie.
有些人可能不明白 Some people may not get it.
主要就是在这些画面中说出这句台词 It's about saying the lines with these pictures.
你通常会在一些完全不同的情境下说这句话 You usually say lines like that in completely different settings.
这就是这部电影的关键 That's the key to this movie.
你的作品通常都对白稀少 但其中每句话都很值得品读 You usually have sparse dialogue, where every word is weighed carefully.
听起来挺俗 但确实如此 让人每一句都不会漏掉 It sounds like a cliché, but it's true. You can't miss a single sentence.
当然 Of course.
- 你怎么样? - 我不应该抱怨 - How are you? - I shouldn't complain.
- 有的人比我还糟糕呢 - 也对 - Some people have it worse. - That's true.
接下来 是我们第一次看到这两个人出现 Moving on, this is the first time we meet this duo...
他们让我想起了《等待戈多》里的那两个人 They remind me a bit of the Waiting for Godot duo.
没错 就是《等待戈多》里的二人组 That's right, they're a Godot duo.
他俩就像桑科·潘萨（堂吉柯德的随从） 或是斯坦·劳莱和奥列佛·哈台（好莱坞早期喜剧双宝） They're like Sancho Panza or Stan Laurel and Oliver Hardy.
其中一人就来自“牢骚之城”——（瑞典）厄勒布鲁附近 One is from "whine country" - around Örebro.
没人看得明白这个梗 Nobody really gets this.
到后来你才能意识到这个场景的特别之处 It's not until afterwards you realize this scene is special.
- 不过让这两人在墙柱后面对话... - 对 - But having dialogue behind the pillar... - Yeah.
这个场景实在很妙 This set is wonderfully nice.
在后面那段音乐场景里也有 It's also in the later musical scene.
咱们聊聊这个二人组 本片的两位主角 Let's talk about this duo, your main characters.
你们之前就有过合作么? Have you worked with these before?
在《你还活着》里面也有他们俩 They were also in You, the Living.
但那时只是小角色 基本就跑了个龙套 They had very small roles, almost like extras.
我那时就发现他俩很不错 可以来演这部 I thought they were great and would really work here,
就像“劳瑞和哈台”二人组 like a Laurel and Hardy duo.
画面中离我们较近的是（演员）霍尔格 Holger is sitting closest to us.
他是比较弱的那一个 经常哭 He's the soft one and cries a lot.
旁边另一个角色就比较强硬 The other one is a tougher character.
你可以说我抄袭或借鉴了“劳瑞和哈台” You could say that I stole or borrowed from Laurel and Hardy,
甚至是贝克特的《等待戈多》 or even from Beckett, Waiting for Godot.
在《等待戈多》里 In Waiting for Godot,
贝克特创造的角色就在那说了整整三个小时的胡话 Beckett's characters talk nonsense for three hours
但其中的一字一句都那么有趣 and every bit of it is interesting.
这片子里他俩也就是说些胡话 没一句要紧的 Here they're also talking nonsense. Nothing important is said.
这种满腹怨气的角色我们很常见 We do get a lot of the whiny character
还有旁边这个就可怜兮兮的 and he's a very pitiful man.
- 这个也是在片场搭的景吧? - 对 - This is also built here, right? - Yes.
真了不起 It's amazing.
独牙叔叔 Uncle Onetooth.
这个场景... 我们之前聊过 Here's a... We talked about this.
这名军人... This military man...
没有人关心他 而且他也没有... He's also unloved and someone who doesn't...
- 他让我想起了你的那部 《羁旅情愫》（1975） - 噢 是的 - It reminds me of Giliap. - Oh yes.
《羁旅情愫》中的那个男人吃着午餐 不想听任何电话 The man in Giliap having lunch,not wanting any calls.
- 这是想表达人的孤独? - 当然 - Is it about human loneliness? - Of course.
表现一种无人问津的感觉? 怎么来理解呢? Is it about not being wanted by anyone? How do we put it?
当然了 就是在说人的孤独感 It's about human loneliness, of course.
他非常孤单 就像《羁旅情愫》中的西蒙森队长 He's incredibly lonely,just like Captain Simonsson in Giliap.
那也是一个... 诠释孤独人生的角色 That's also a character that's... It's about human loneliness.
- 他军人的身份是很重要的么? - 对 这很重要 - Is it important that he's a military man? - Yes, it's important.
身着制服会给人安全感 Wearing a uniform makes people feel safe.
他们会觉得自己属于社会 没有被冷落遗忘 They feel like they belong in society.They're not left out on their own.
当你身穿制服 你就觉得有归属感 When you're in uniform, you belong to something.
可他仍然弄不清楚是在哪开会 But he still can't keep track of his meetings,
哪怕他是负责瑞典治安的人之一 even though he's one of the people in charge of Sweden's defenses.
他还不知道去哪儿参加午餐会 Still, he can't keep track of his lunch meetings.
展示出这一点很重要 就是这种感觉 It's important to show that. It's how it is.
想到治安人员的时候 我们总有一种很鄙夷的态度 We have a very sloppy attitude when it comes to things like defense.
人们总期望完美无缺 但根本不是如此 People expect perfection, but it's not at all like that.
而在餐厅里面 我们能看到弗拉明戈舞蹈课的那两个人 And in the restaurant, we can see the flamenco couple.
这感觉太有趣了 这是你突发奇想的么? It's also exciting. Was it something that just came to you?
这个场景实际上和其他的都不一样 This scene is actually different from all the other scenes.
这是因为生病的缘故 It's the result of illness.
两个演推销员的其中一个生病了 One of the two salesmen took ill,
所以这个场景里我们没法叫他来拍了 so we couldn't do the scene with him in this setting.
我只好把剧本改了一下 I had to change the script a bit.
有时候一改动可能整个影片氛围就冲淡了 It's possible that the changes made the movie a bit watered-down,
但那天我加进去的这段对话和情景算是化险为夷了 but I saved the day by adding this dialogue and this situation.
一开始的计划可不是这样 But it wasn't planned from the start.
如果给你添了麻烦 我真的很抱歉 I'm truly sorry if this causes problems for you.
我实在也不想这样的 I really don't want that.
谢谢你 Thank you.
对这种事你有什么看法? 给周围人添麻烦的话? What's that like for you, having to disturb your circles?
你会因此而发愁么? Did it make you worried?
总之你不能慌神 心里毫无头绪 You just can't lose track of your concepts or lose focus.
- 你得有备用计划 - 对 还要专注用心... 嗯... - You need a plan B. - Yes, and intensity... Yeah...
这是一个很棘手的状况 It was a troublesome situation,
但我认为最后结果还不错 but I think it turned out well.
二人组出现了 他们兴致寥寥 却又去兜售一些新奇玩具 Here's our duo. They're not exactly jolly,yet they peddle novelty items.
还是那种感觉 想笑又如鲠在喉 Again, it's like having your laughter getting stuck in your throat.
那个人正端起水在吃一片头疼药 Here he's getting water to wash down a headache pill,
他们就进来兜售新奇玩具 just as they're there to peddle novelty items.
在他们的立场来说，是想把东西卖出去 They're in the position of trying to sell things.
而老板占据主动权 所以他俩就得在旁边老实呆着等着 He has the upper hand and they have to accept what he does.
这里是这段场景最棒的地方 It's the best part of this scene,
他们一直等到他喝完了头疼药 when they're waiting for him to wash down his headache pill.
然后就出现了这精彩的一幕... Then there's this wonderful...
他俩看起来一副身挑重负的样子 却要开口说: They seem to carry the world on their shoulders, but they say:
“我们想帮助人们有段快乐时光” "We want to help people have a good time."
这只是一句推销的言辞 It's just a sales pitch.
我不知道他们自己相不相信这话 I don't know if they believe it themselves.
这么说只是为了把东西卖出去 You say that to sell your products.
他们是两个个体 These are two individuals
生活在哥德堡的廉价房里的人 who live in a flophouse in Gothenburg.
我当时脑海里的设定就是这样 That's what I had in mind for this situation.
哥德堡的一间廉价房屋 A flophouse in Gothenburg.
提前退休了 离了婚 还有酗酒的毛病 They're either early retirees, divorced or have drinking problems.
- 很孤独 他们只有彼此为伴 - 他俩各睡一间房 - Lonely, they only have each other. - They each have a room.
在瑞典有许许多多这样的地方 There were plenty of places like that all over Sweden.
他们拿着可怜的退休金勉强糊口 想着做点儿生意 They have a small pension, can barely live on it and try to do some business.
他俩的主意就是去卖新奇玩具 Their idea is to sell novelty items.
如果你没有任何优势的话 这是个很不错的生意 It's pretty good business if you don't have any resources.
新奇玩具价格低廉 要做这一行不会太花钱 It's cheap to get into the business since novelty items don't cost much.
基本没什么风险 跑跑腿就能赚钱了 It's a pretty safe business. You can earn enough to get by.
他们的表情是那样，而说的是这样:“这是派对恶作剧的必备良品” Contrast their looks with them saying: "It's a great party gag."
他们就那么呆站着... 看上去十分可悲 They just stand there... looking incredibly pathetic.
是啊 不过... Yeah, but...
人们看到他们 觉得很可悲 People look at them and call them pathetic,
却不懂回头看看自己如何 but they forget to look at themselves.
我们也可能一直都是同样可悲的存在 We could be just as pathetic all the time.
我们只是尽量去... We try to...
对啊 Yeah...
不 这是... No, it's...
你在这部影片中最想传达的是什么? What are you trying to achieve with this movie?
我理解它是对为人的一种诠释 但... I get that it's a comment about what it means to be human, but...
是否也是想让我们意识到应该去反观自己? Is it also meant to make us feel like we have to shape up?
有一部分这个原因吧... Well, it's partly that...
它也同样提出一个问题 就是人到底为什么要彻底反观自己 It could also raise the question of why one should shape up at all.
人生已经这般丰富而庞大... Life is already so terribly rich and grand...
艺术表达最美妙的地方就在这里 It's what is so beautiful about artistic expressions.
不断地点出我们的野心 They're constantly pointing out our ambitions,
我们想获得幸福 或只是为了生存的努力 our attempts to achieve happiness and just to survive.
通过艺术来观察这种野心甚或失败是很奇妙的 It's amazing to watch these ambitions through art, and even failures.
展现如何获得幸福是很寻常的事 It's usually about attempts to achieve happiness,
但在艺术领域 诠释失败也很普遍 but failures are also very prevalent in art.
但说到如何为人 But this thing about being human...
这个主题一直充斥在艺术史中 The history of art is rife with that topic.
是时候也该有这样一部电影让我们来展现 It's about time that we get to show these kinds of simple situations in a movie,
关于如何为人那些简单的处境 about what it's like to be human.
他耳朵不太好使 又想再要一杯啤酒 He's hard of hearing and wants another drink.
那我们干嘛不把它拍出来呢? 这多妙啊 Why can't we have that in movies? It's beautiful.
她很礼貌得当地提高嗓门 让他听得见她的话 She's polite and decent and raises her voice to make herself understood.
她还向其他顾客去解释状况 She also explains to some other customer:
“他耳朵不太好使 来他经常来这里喝酒快有100年了” "He has trouble hearing now. He's been coming here for close to 100 years."
接着背景中有人开口说: Then we have someone in the back saying:
"生活中要是不能喝上一杯会怎样?" 那人说，“或者两杯” "What would life be like without a drink?" "Or two," someone says.
“我甚至都不敢想象” "I don't even want to think about it."
这一段很美... 就像老勃鲁盖尔的画一样 It's really nice... This is like Bruegel.
描绘社交生活的场景 You depict social life.
这是1920年代的瑞典 Here it's Sweden in the 1920s,
跟16世纪老勃鲁盖尔画中所描绘的很像 and it's similar to Bruegel's paintings from the 16th century,
就是那种乡间生活 成了我创作这部电影的灵感 when he depicted peasant life. It inspired me to make this movie.
现在我们转到了1943年 Now we're moving on to 1943.
这是一段绝妙的音乐场景 This is an amazing musical scene.
- 我也这么认为 - 非常出色 - I think so, too. - It's outstanding.
还有那个点一杯酒坐着的老人 We also have this oldie about the price of a drink.
对 这里我很满意 Yes, I'm happy with it.
这个场景一定是花了很大功夫 It must have taken an incredible amount of work.
对 但我灵感充足 这个场景也丝毫不觉得很繁琐 Yes, but I was really inspired and this scene didn't seem like a chore.
很随意自在地就完成了 It went pretty much on autopilot.
1943年正是我出生的那一年 1943 is the year I was born.
- 正是二战时候 - 对 - It was in the middle of the war. - Right.
实际上... 我父亲对于我出生在这一年感到很自豪 It was actually... My dad was proud that I was born in 1943.
那正是德国在斯大林格勒战败的时候 That's when the Germans lost the battle of Stalingrad.
所以... 1943年 - 斯大林格勒战役 So... 1943 - Stalingrad.
那是最后一次为德国人喊万岁的时候 It was a last hoorah for those who rooted for the Germans.
1943年 很多水手和步兵会到这间酒吧里来 In 1943, a lot of sailors and infantrymen would come to this bar.
他们都没什么钱 They didn't have much money,
但据传用一个吻就可以换酒喝 but according to legend,they could get a drink for a kiss.
我觉得有点夸大了 大概没那么容易的 I think it's embellished, it probably wasn't that simple.
但是“跛行”洛塔 这间酒吧的老板 But... Lame Lotta, who ran this bar,
据说可以用一个吻跟她换酒喝 it's said that she would trade a drink for a kiss.
或许不止一个吻 或许还有别的什么 Maybe not just a kiss, maybe more than that.
这里她演得非常好 She's really great here.
她是一位歌剧演员 唱歌非常好 She's an opera singer and can really sing.
她... 我真是没话说 她撑起了这一整段场景 She... what can I say? She carries this scene.
她的表演方式极富戏剧性 Wonderful drama in the way she acts.
还有这整套布景... And the entire scenery...
这段场景让我感到很自豪 I'm very proud of this scene.
这段在国外评价都很好 哪怕人们听不懂歌词的含义 It's very appreciated abroad, even if people can't understand the lyrics.
国外的观众都还是觉得这段很迷人 People from other countries still find it fascinating.
我在想前景中的这个人 I was thinking about the man in the foreground.
他很显眼 你的眼睛会为其注目 He's very present and your eyes are drawn to him.
是的 但他在这里没有什么重要作用 Right, but he doesn't serve much of a function,
就是一位坐在那里的普通顾客 other than just sitting there as one of the customers.
他这个角色并没有什么特别之处 There's nothing really special about his character.
很多人有另外的解读 但最初的想法中并没有 A lot of people think otherwise,but it wasn't the idea.
他抢了很多眼球 He steals a lot of focus.
你需要把注意力放在这里的某个人身上 You need someone in the room to focus on.
你的构图总是如此精细 You're always very thorough with compositions.
- 他的作用是让构图平衡 - 的确如此 - He's there to add balance. - Absolutely.
还有这些在窗边的人 Then we have the people in the window.
你在以前的广告作品里经常这么拍 You often had that in your old commercials.
就像咱们一样 他们也在观察发生的事 Just like us, they're watching what's going on.
你总会考量到这一点 就像你的一个标志性设定 You often include that,like one of your trademarks.
奥夫? 这一段真的很棒 咱们能把原音打开么? Ove? This scene is really nice. Can we have sound?
酒瘾上来没钱你就献上一个吻吧 With kisses are we going to pay
当我们在哥德堡"跛行洛塔"酒吧畅饮之时 at Lame Lotta's bar in Gothenburg
既然酒瘾上头，我们就聊献一吻吧 With kisses are we going to pay
当我们在哥德堡"跛行洛塔"酒吧畅饮之时 at Lame Lotta's bar in Gothenburg
接下来这幕几近忧郁 Then there's this almost melancholic...
- 他要回家了 - 没错 - He's going home. - Yes.
孤零零一个人 All alone.
他得披上外套 And he needs his coat.
这让我想起在哥德堡成长的日子 This reminds me of Gothenburg growing up.
我记得那些啤酒店 比如日式咖啡厅 I remember the beer halls, like Kafé Japan.
从小就见到这些 印象深刻 I grew up with those and you must remember them.
这些啤酒店在哥德堡很常见 不是吗？ Weren't those beer halls typical of Gothenburg?
到处都是 You had those everywhere.
我觉得他们只卖比尔森啤酒 I think they only sold pilsner.
店里是瓷砖地板 穿着夹克的男人们坐在地板上 You had tile floors and men would sit there wearing jackets,
有时候带个帽子 喝着比尔森啤酒 sometimes wearing a cap, drinking pilsner.
这种啤酒几乎不含酒精吧？ There was hardly any alcohol in it, or?
酒精含量不高 There wasn't a lot of alcohol content in that beer.
太奇妙了 在斯德哥尔摩南区 It's amazing, on the South Side of Stockholm,
两个六十多岁的女人经营着这样一家店 two women in their 60s had one of these cafés.
私下卖酒 这简直不可思议 They sold alcohol under the counter there.
在六十或七十岁的时候 她们因此被捕 They got caught when they were around 60 or 70 years old,
但她们非法卖酒很多年了 but they'd been doing it for many years.
我很喜欢这点 I really like that.
现在是合法的 但在当时是非法的 It's legal now, but back then it wasn't.
我在想 这种苍白感 I was thinking, pastiness.
瑞典人都这样吗？ 你因拍摄而到处旅行 Is that typical of Swedes? You travel a lot with your films.
厨房这场戏 带有一种苍白的寂寥感 You have some kind of pasty boredom in this apartment kitchen.
- 你发现这里的美了吗？ - 发现了 - Do you see something beautiful here? - I do.
我觉得...这苍白感不是真实的 I don't think they're...The pastiness is true.
但我觉得也没那么糟 But I don't think it's all that bad here.
他们只是十分... They're just very...
他们只是还需忍受生活多年的两位幸存者 They're two survivors who have to suffer through life a few more years.
他们还有孩子 And they have kids or...
我觉得这很有趣 I find this interesting.
在这些场景里 色调几乎都是黑或白 There's an almost black and white tone in most scenes.
墙上没有图画 全是灰白 No paintings on the walls and it's all gray and white...
然后你拍了这些短短的…就像隧道尽头加入了像光一样的东西 Then you have these short...Like the light at the end of a tunnel.
你对这两个小女孩的设定 感觉就像换了一个色调 You have these girls...It feels like a different color scheme
两个拥有美好人生的两个小女孩 and two young girls with their lives in front of them
她们做着我小时候做过的事 做着我的孩子们和其他人的孩子们做的事 are doing what I did, what my kids did and what other people's kids will do.
我觉得我的电影是积极向上的 即使色调黑暗 I think my movies are life-affirming, even if you find them pitch-black.
我也尽量让他们不那么悲观 I'll try to make them a bit less pitch-black.
我很爱这样的设定 后面这个场景 这一个不错的转折 I really love this. There's also a later scene, and it's a nice change.
黑漆漆的一片中 仍有色彩和生气 Colorful and lively in the middle of all the dark stuff.
当我告诉你 我认为这是我三部曲中最暗黑的片段时 You were surprised when I told you,
你可能会吃惊 but I see this as the darkest part of the trilogy.
- 这一段？ - 这部《寒枝雀静》 - This scene? - Pigeon.
- 这也是一段很悲伤的戏 - 是这样没错 - This is also a very sad scene. - Oh yes.
我们的二人组试图收款 Our duo is trying to collect money.
女人在哭泣 她的孩子在一旁玩耍 她的丈夫躲了起来 She's sobbing, the child is playing and the man is hiding.
没错 Yeah...
没错 这很悲哀 但我却把它当喜剧看 Yes, it's sad, but I've also seen it as comical.
但是 But...
你往里面加了喜剧元素 You insert comedy in this,
却想笑笑不出来 因为你认识到了其严肃性 but the laughter gets stuck in your throat and you recognize that it's serious.
所以你不觉得...? So you don't think...?
你把《寒枝雀静》和另外两部相比较 Do you think of Pigeon as being like the other two,
就是《你还活着》和《二楼传来的歌声》 Living and Songs...?
你不觉得这一部更暗黑吗？ You don't see this as being darker?
我不这么觉得呀 对我来说 这一幕... No, I don't think so. For me, this scene...
让丈夫躲到毯子底下很必要 One of the reasons for this scene is to have him hide under a blanket.
“我没有钱” “我没有钱” "I don't have any money." "I don't have any money."
这是我多部电影重复出现的主题 包括这一部 It's a recurring theme in a lot of my movies, including this one.
“我没有一分钱” 他给不起钱 这当然十分搞笑 "I don't have any money." Of course it's funny that he can't pay.
- 然后他还躲在毯子底下 - 是啊 是很有趣 - And he hides under a blanket. - Yes, it's very funny.
但我还是有一种骨子里的暗黑 But I still feel like there's a darker vein
这种暗黑贯穿了整部电影 that permeates Pigeon, the entire movie.
真有趣 我不这么觉得 不过我知道有人这么觉得 That's interesting. I didn't feel that way, but I know that several people did.
他们认为这部比其他两部更暗黑 They see it as darker than the others.
这也让这部片子更加有力和扣人心弦 It also makes it very gripping and powerful.
这里我想的是... Here I was thinking...
指导这些孩子们会是什么体验？ 比如这个小女孩 What was it like to direct these children, like this girl?
跟他们合作困难吗？ Was it hard to work with...?
患有唐氏综合症的孩子们反而十分直率和诚恳 Children with Down syndrome are incredibly frank and honest.
和他们在一起很开心充满正能量 It's just so pleasant and positive to be around them.
我跟这些孩子合作过 在阿尔斯塔的一个戏剧学校 I've worked with these children, or a theater school in Årsta...
和这所学校的这些患唐氏综合症的孩子们合作 ...that worked with children with Down syndrome.
我跟这所学校保持联系多年了 I've been in touch with this school for many years.
很久以前 在我的《瘟疫降临》（1987）这部片里也有一个场景 There was also a scene long ago, in a movie called Something Happened.
戏剧教员十分义气 The theater pedagogue was incredibly sympathetic
当时 他们还帮助我们拍摄那部电影 and helped us with that movie, back then.
现在我们同班人马再次合作 Now we got in touch with that same group,
所有的家长们也都同意让他们的孩子参演 and all the parents were okay with having their children in this scene.
我们对此十分感激 We're very grateful for that.
这些孩子是最直率最具正能量的 No other children are as frank and positive as these children.
和他们在一起感觉很棒 It's just amazing to be around them.
- 它飞回去了 - 然后它就飞回去了 - It flew home. - And then it flew home.
跟孩子们拍这一幕的时候是怎样的？ And directing this scene with these children...?
我们彩排了很多次 薇儿玛一直站在那儿的 We had to rehearse a lot with Vilma standing there.
她起初十分迟疑 She was very skeptical at first.
这些孩子们本没打算上舞台 但我们也没办法 The children weren't meant to run up on stage, but we had to let it go.
- 你的感受是什么？ - 我觉得还好吧 - What was that like for you? - I was fine with it.
- 很即兴的感觉 - 没错 充满活力 - It feels very spontaneous. - Yes, and full of vitality.
一个小女孩儿跑上去鞠躬 我们很高兴拍到了那一幕 One girl ran up and bowed. We should be happy we got that.
现在来谈谈让人印象深刻的一幕 Now it's time for a scene that is completely outstanding.
好的 Yes...
不知道怎么说 很难诠释 I don't know, it's really difficult to interpret...
我想的是... I was thinking like...
像是霍普画里的一个酒吧 都是些沉闷 孤单的人 It's like a bar in a Hopper...It's all dreary, lonely souls.
- 感觉有点像爱德华·霍普的画 - 是的 - It feels a bit like Edward Hopper. - Yes.
男人们走进酒吧 The men come in here...
酒保对我们的二人组很不耐烦 然后是群众演员们 The bartender is being very unpleasant towards our duo.
但我比较在意二人组 我们的非正统派主角 Then we get the rest, but I was thinking about this duo, our anti-heroes.
他们有点引导的意思 They're like some sorts of guides...
在一个充斥着漠然和缺爱的人们的社会里 ...in a society with a lot of apathy and loveless people...
- 他们指引着我们 - 没错 - They guide us through this. - Yes.
我觉得他们带我们走过的都是很寻常的事物 I think they guide us through something that's pretty normal.
没什么特别的 It's not anything spectacular.
不寻常的是我们闯入了这里 What's spectacular is what we get in a while here.
他们到处兜售产品 两个失败的人 They're out peddling their products. They're two losers.
他们提早退休 或是失业 They're early retirees or out of work.
他们以此维生 They do this to supplement their pensions.
- 找点事儿做 - 对 - And to have something to do. - Right.
也可以说是对抗无趣的生活 It could also be about overcoming boredom.
没错 当然 That, too. Sure.
他们的口号是 想要给大家带来美好时光 Their sales pitch is that they want to help people have a good time,
但他们其实只在意销售 but they're really just interested in selling.
你是怎么看待这一幕的？ 这些是我们混日子的榜样啊 How did you think of this scene? These are our guides through life.
然后你就突发奇想 “我知道 要让一个查理时代的人骑马进来” Then you thought: "I know, let's bring in a Carolean on his horse."
是这样 但这点子其实并不新颖 Yeah, but it's actually an old idea.
他们自自然然地就走进了镜头 就像巡查员一样 Look how nicely they enter the shot, like scouts.
和巡查员一样 They're great as scouts...
他们演得就像巡查员 骑着马走进酒吧 They act just like scouts, riding in there.
- 实地巡查 - 非常有趣 - Reconnoitering. - Just amazing.
- 你说这点子不新颖？ -没错 各种时代穿越 - You said it was an old idea? - Yes, about an anachronism.
我想在我们的时代里加入些历史元素 I wanted to bring something historical to our time.
我们查理十二世穿越到我们这个时代 Here it's Charles XII in our time.
没错 我也说不出到底为什么喜欢 大概是时机对了 Yeah... I can't say why I like it, but it was time to do it.
就像我之前提到的 在80年代中期 It's like I mentioned earlier, in the middle of the 80s,
我完全放弃了现实主义 I shied away from realism completely.
现实故事对我完全失去了吸引力 I found realistic stories completely uninteresting.
我偏爱奇梦和年代乱入 I enjoyed inserting dreams or anachronisms.
就像是一个大杂烩 It's a total jumble,
关于我们的认知 我们生活的方式和我们的历史 about what we know, how we live and our history.
全部糅杂在一起 All in one great jumble.
像在讲述瑞典人的自我形象 Here it's about the Swedish people's self-image.
我们曾是强国 查理十二世有所作为 还被诗歌赞颂 We were a great power, Charles XII did stuff and there are poems about him.
但他其实就是个二世祖 But he was just a loser, really.
他把他的祖先 查理十世和十一世所建立起来的东西给毁了 He destroyed what his predecessors had built, Charles X and Charles XI.
瑞典当时很强大 Sweden was a great power back then.
然后这个傻逼当权 毁了一切 Then this fool came to power and destroyed it all.
所有女人都出去！ No women on the premises!
他赶走了所有的女人 Here he ejects all the women.
我查阅了相关的所有历史资料 I've gone through historical documents about this.
他惧怕女人 He was terrified of women.
他不能和女人共处一室 He couldn't be in the same room as women,
他很偏爱... and he very much preferred...
驻扎的时候 他和他的士兵们睡在同一个帐篷里 While campaigning, he would sleep in the same tents as his soldiers.
我不知道这暗示了什么， 但这是事实 We don't know what that meant, but it's a fact.
这并没有什么大惊小怪的 但却被隐瞒了起来 There's really nothing weird about it, but it's been hushed up.
他是一个雄武国王的象征 勇士之王 He's a symbol of a macho ideal, the warrior king.
然而他可能是双性恋或同性恋 That he would have bisexual or homosexual tendencies
是我们不想知道的事 was something we didn't want to hear about...
我不应该说“我们” 但是瑞典人... I shouldn't say "we", but Swedes...
瑞典精英们不想听到或承认这件事 The Swedish elite didn't want to hear about it or acknowledge it.
他必须是一个雄武之王 He was supposed to be a macho king.
他在国王公园还有一座雕像 手指东方 He's still a statue in Kungsträdgården, pointing east.
“让我们拿下俄国人！” "Let's get the Russians."
傻逼逼的 应该把雕像给拆掉 It's just so silly. I think they should tear down that statue.
啊哈哈...让我们继续讨论这一幕 拍摄过程困难吗？ Oh wow... Let's return to this scene. Was it difficult to do?
你们用了真的马和其他东西 You're using live horses and stuff here.
作为导演和制作人 As a director and filmmaker,
你会有担心的事吗？ are you worried about things?
你会因挂念场景拍摄而失眠吗？ Are there scenes which caused you to lose sleep?
挺困难的 This was difficult.
我但是很... I was really...
我觉得我从马身上染了病毒 I think I caught some virus from the horses.
我们用马拍摄了挺长一段时间 We worked with the horses a long time
那期间我还感冒了 and I had a cold during this entire part of the movie.
但也熬过来了 But I managed to get through it.
挺神奇的 你学着适应了 It was amazing. You get used to it.
你先得适应四五匹马 First you get used to having four or five horses.
然后是二十匹 甚至上百匹 Then you get used to twenty horses, or even a hundred horses.
最终 你还得习惯一大群士兵 Eventually, you get used to having a hundred soldiers as well.
没错 然后还有... Yes, then there's this...
你拍摄的手法回归了老式电影的拍摄方法 Your way of working is a return to old-school moviemaking,
用一个固定的镜头 with a stationary camera...
不过我看到你镜头移动了一点点 左边的老虎机不见了 Here we see you moving it a bit. The slots on the left disappear.
你得把握好时机 You have to get the timing just right.
这是一场很大的戏 背景里有马和士兵 It's a giant scene with horses and soldiers in the background.
- 没什么特殊效果 - 对 没有 - And no special effects. - No.
都是现场拍的 必须确保万无一失 It's all done live on camera and you have to get it right.
我不想让你失望 I don't want to disappoint you,
我们采用了绿幕技术 but we did use a technology called green-screen.
我们大概有24匹马 We had about 24 horses to work with.
但看起来至少有124匹 Here it looks like at least 124.
我们让这24匹马不断穿梭 这样排队看起来长一些 We were able to shuffle the 24 horses around and make the line longer.
- 就像循环播放一样 - 对 还有不断改变位置 - It's like a loop. - Yes, and changed positions.
我们加入了其他不断重复 We were able to add another go-around.
有些人以为我们是让马绕着镜头拍的 这也可以 People think we had the horses circle the camera, and that would be possible,
但是我们得需要更多的马 but we would have needed ten more.
有了绿幕技术 24匹马就足够了 24 horses were enough, thanks to the green-screen technology.
我们让拍摄看起来很棒 这让我很开心 We made it look good and I'm very happy with this.
这一段可以放到油管上去 It's a scene that you could put on YouTube
单独地看 and watch it separately.
震撼度不是一般的大 It has such incredible impact.
你选的查理十二世很孱弱 很孩子气 Your Charles XII seems like a weak and boyish man.
你花了多久才找到合适的演员？ How long did it take to find the right actor?
他是的一个非常的著名的戏剧剧团和马戏团的一员 He's part of a very famous theater or circus troupe.
一个叫做Cirkör的马戏团（瑞典知名马戏团） 他是剧团的一员 It's called Cirkus Cirkör. He's part of that troupe.
他其实是一名杂技表演者 不是一个职业演员 但却是一个表演者 He's really a juggler. He's not a professional actor, but a performer.
他的特长是耍杂技 还是一名特技演员 His specialty is juggling, and he's also an acrobat.
但他其实也很擅于... But he's also really good at...
当你那样做的时候，你其实也是可以从中学到东西 When you do things like that, you also learn to time your lines.
你不想用常规演员？ You don't want to work with "regular actors".
这并非我所想 It's not something I mind,
瑞典有一千万人 but there might be 10,000 actors in Sweden
里面大概有10000名演员 out of ten million Swedes.
在大众中能有更多的选择 You have more to choose from in the general population.
我想要找到让我有真实感的人 I try to find people who I feel are authentic.
这是幽默的必要条件 It's almost a pre-requisite for humor.
这一幕可能不是特别好的例子 This scene may not be an example of that,
但这始终是我自己的哲学理念 真实性非常重要 but it's still my philosophy, that the authentic is very important.
我对这一幕十分好奇 I'm curious about this scene.
你是不是想试探一下自己到底能做什么 Did you feel like you wanted to see what you could do
- 探索自己的作为导演的极限？ - 对 是这样 - and test the limits as a director? - Of course.
这应该算是你拍摄过难度最大的场景之一了吧 It must have been one of your most difficult scenes.
没错 当你看着导演的这些工作 Yes, when you look at the direction work here,
我觉得这十分卓越 I think it's pretty extraordinary.
这场戏花了很大的功夫 It took a lot of work to get this scenery.
我们得排练 还得把背景布置好 We had to rehearse and get the background right.
甚至在前奏部分 在你士兵进入之前 And even the prelude, before all the soldiers enter.
这是具有纪念性的任务 能够成功完成让我很高兴 It was a monumental task and I'm happy we pulled it off.
现在是步兵团 带长矛的枪兵 Now we have the infantry and the pikemen with their pikes.
他们唱着这首歌 They sing this song...
这是一幕非常酷的场景 我感到很自豪 It's a really cool scene. I'm very proud.
这一幕不能在你的工作室拍吧 You couldn't do this scene here in your studio.
不能 但我们在舞台前景彩排了这一幕 No, but we did rehearsals here with the scenery in the foreground,
国王坐在吧台 with the king at the bar counter.
我们在这儿彩排了这场戏的原始版本 We rehearsed that here in a primitive version of this set.
我们排练了步调 台词 We rehearsed the pacing, the lines
然后决定了谁来演查理十二世 and decided who should portray Charles XII.
我们换了七八个查理十二世 I think we tried seven or eight different Charles XII
最后选了Cirkör马戏团的这位年轻小伙子 and went with this young guy from Cirkus Cirkör.
之前在商业广告里看到过他 I had cast him earlier in a commercial.
查理十二世有着千军万马 Charles XII has a hundred thousand men
他在狼烟中 勇猛直前 as he marches off in smoke and macadam
- 这是一个比较色彩亮丽的场景 - 对 - Here's another more colorful scene. - Yes.
像是一个插曲或某种过渡 It's like an interlude or some kind of transition
和之前的场景比起来 这里充满了人味儿 before the rest about what it's like being human.
色调很亮很舒服 一个快乐的母亲带着她的孩子 It's very bright and nice, a happy mother with her child.
嗯，我... Well, I...
电影里一个典型的特征 当然也代表了我的世界观 One defining characteristic of my movies and also my world-view
人们被残忍的暴露在 is the people are terribly exposed
残酷的现实之中 in a harsh and brutal reality.
- 这位母亲和她的孩子 - 但她看起来真的很开心 - This mother and her child... - But she does seem happy.
但是你也可以说 对当权者来说 她无足轻重 Yes, but you can tell that she's not an important person for those in power.
她被允许存在 但不能占用空间 She's allowed to exist, but not take up space.
她的美丽 恰恰就是因为她不是非常重要 What makes her beautiful is that she's not very prominent.
这一幕切合我的世界观 以及我对人性的观点 This scene is closer to my world-view and my view of humanity
比其他任何一幕都要切合 than many of the other scenes.
女人坐在那里 亲吻着孩子的脚 The woman just sits there with her child and kisses its feet.
现在我们来到了廉价旅馆 Now we're at the flophouse and...
这一幕...这里的这个男人... This is... this man here...
他让你发笑 却又带点忧伤 It makes you laugh, but it's also very sad.
他们来这儿找我们的二人组 They're looking for our duo here.
拍了这一场 我很开心 I'm really happy with this scenery, that we built this.
我在哥德堡的市区长大 I grew up in downtown Gothenburg.
五岁之前都住在西约塔兰省 I lived in Nordstaden the first five years.
那儿就有一个这样的廉价旅馆 There's a flophouse there that looks just like this one.
由救世军经管 It's run by the Salvation Army.
我弟弟在那里住了很多年 他嗑药又酗酒 My brother lived there for many years. He had problems with drugs and alcohol.
他现在已经去世了 但他之前就住在这样一个地方 He's dead now, but he used to live in a place like this.
所以我对这种环境十分了解 I know this environment very well.
他们不能在这儿喝酒 I think they're not allowed to drink alcohol here,
但他们住在这里 通过兜售新奇小物赚点外快 but they live here and try to earn a little extra peddling novelty items.
来访者来此讨要欠款 The visitors here are demanding payment.
这个女人很强势 没有同情心 It's a woman who is aggressive and not very empathetic.
她的助手在告诉他们欠了多少钱 Her assistant is showing how much they owe,
或者是谁签了这份合同 or who signed the contract.
这一幕很棒 This is a good scene.
很有实际深度的一个画面 Here we have real image depth.
- 他们站在窗户边 - 这一幕从很多层面上来看都很有意义 - They're standing in the window... - The scene works on many levels.
他们在走廊 你看不到 They're in the hallway, which you can't see.
我们之后会看到 We get to see that later.
然后一个带着手风琴的男子入镜了 Then a man enters, with an accordion.
他在这里 There he is.
我觉得他带有点俄罗斯人的气质 I think this is a bit Russian.
这一幕有点陀思妥耶夫斯基的感觉 This scene feels like Dostoyevsky.
如果大家能看在这一幕里看到我的野心 我会很开心 I would be very happy if people could see my ambitions here.
这是一幕陀思妥耶夫斯基的戏 探索存在主义的方方面面 It's a Dostoyevsky scene, with every nook of existence
每一部分都关于人 and every little part of what it is to be human.
你住在廉价旅馆 你穷 受到了一个中层阶级藏家的来访 You're poor and live in a flophouse, getting a visit from mid-level collectors.
这让你想到作恶者和受害者 It makes you think of perpetrators and victims,
- 存在主义的受害者 - 对 没错 - and being a victim of existence. - Oh yes.
是 这很严酷 Yes, it's harsh.
我在这里所想表达的东西 All the things I'm trying to tell here
都来源与我在哥德堡的希辛半岛的成长经历 comes from growing up on Hisingen in Gothenburg.
这两个角色直接来自于我童年的记忆 Those two characters are straight from my childhood.
我成长的经历中见识了很多这样的失败者 I grew up seeing a lot of people like them, losers.
他们自己并不知道他们失败 但你能看出来他们绝不是赢家 They didn't know they were losers, but you could tell they weren't winners.
- 也是没人爱的人 - 没错 你可以这么说 - And unloved as well. - Yes, you could say that.
感到被爱和被需要 这很重要 不是吗？ It's important to feel loved and needed. Don't you agree?
而这些人都非这两者 从这里可以看出来 These are people who are neither, not based on what we see here.
这很无情 很冷酷 This is unsentimental and crass.
“滚去睡觉 大晚上的不要这么大声说话” "Go to sleep now. You can't talk this loudly this late."
但你还是会嘲笑他们 But you still get to laugh at them.
又是这个男人 Here's this man again...
他穿着制服 他很重要 但他又错过了聚会 He's in uniform, he's important and he's missed his meetings.
这很棒 在这段独白里 他不断重复“自然”这个词 This is great. During this monologue, he keeps saying the word "naturally".
- 没错 -“自然如此” - Right. - "Naturally."
- 你从哪儿得到的灵感 - 这很有趣 - Where did you get that? - It's just so funny...
他是一个十分缺乏自信的人 He's someone who is totally lacking in confidence.
他一开始就知道自己无能 He sees himself as a loser from the very beginning.
‘我会尽力这样做 但这并没有什么卵用” "I'll try to do this, and of course it won't work."
他从一开始就尝到了失败的滋味 He can taste defeat from the very beginning.
他就像是社会环境的受害者 他自己本身并没有什么错 It's like he's a victim of circumstance. Nothing is his fault.
但是 别忘了他可是中校 But still, don't forget that he's a lieutenant colonel.
他可是指挥瑞典国防卫队的人 He's one of the people in charge of Sweden's defenses,
但他却记不住自己的午餐聚会 and he can't even keep track of his lunch meetings.
事实就是这样 That's how it really is.
你得找到笑点 You manage to get humor out of this.
这很严肃 也很悲剧 但还带点幽默 It's serious and tragic, but there's still humor.
所以这段时间 你都在等着用“自然如此”这个词 And all the time, you're waiting for "naturally".
当那两个男的看着他 并听说话的时候 The humor really comes from the two men listening, when they look at him.
是最搞笑的 That makes it funny.
看这里 Watch this...
这也很...还有这里 But it's also... yes... and these...
我们从电影的魔力暂时缓一缓 We take a break from the movie magic here.
你让他对着镜头说台词 就像前面的理发师一样 You have him talk into the camera, like the barber.
你在这里也用了这个手法 You use that trick here.
他一会儿和两边的人说 一会对着镜头说 He switches between talking to the people there and into the camera.
就好像我们也在现场一样 It's like we're also there.
我会在下一部电影里更多地使用这一技巧 I'll use more of that in my next movie.
- 自然如此 - “自然如此” - Naturally. - "Naturally."
你的角色讨人喜欢吗？ Are your characters lovable?
这个男人 我们知道他要干嘛 This man, we understand what he's about to do.
某种程度上来说 他既可悲又可怜 They're pathetic or pitiful in a way.
可怜而不是可爱吗？ 这句不错哈哈 More pitiful than lovable? There's a fine line there.
是的 我是这么人为的 我们都这样 Yes, I think so. It's true of us all.
- 我们都可怜... - 而不是可爱 - We're all more pitiful than... - Lovable.
我们都是可怜鬼 We're a sad bunch, the lot of us.
那幅画很抢镜 One thing steals a lot of attention here, the painting.
一开始就有的吗？ Was it there from the start?
我们特地画来配合场景的 We had it painted to go with the scene.
我们想给背景布置一个特定的主题 We wanted a specific motif in the background.
是一副简版的布鲁诺·利赫佛斯的画 It's really a simplified Bruno Liljefors.
强调了那件高档办公室的孤独感 It emphasized the loneliness in that fancy office room.
- 墙上黑色的镶板 - 昂贵的收藏书籍 - Dark paneling on the walls. - And expensive books.
高档的地毯和椅子 An expensive carpet and chairs.
- 然后你呈现了这样一个主题 - 没错 - Then you toss us over to this. - Yes.
- 还有我们的“牢骚鬼” - 对 - And our "whiner". - Yes.
还有一个电池留声机 And a battery-powered record player.
盖子上附有扬声器 我记得这种留声机 With speakers in the lid. I remember those.
他精神完全垮掉了 He's lost his spirit completely
另一个人不知道该怎么应对他的老伙伴 and the other one doesn't know how to act towards his old friend.
没错 Yeah...
这些都... 当我说这部电影暗黑的时候你还惊讶 This is just... You were surprised when I called the movie dark,
但我还是要说 《寒枝雀静》比另外两部还要暗黑 but I'll say it again, Pigeon is darker than the other two movies.
- 你真的这么觉得？ - 我很喜欢 - You think so? - And I like it.
我不会说名字 I won't mention any names,
但和我亲近的人看到所有人都死了的时候 很难过 but there are people close to me who hate it when everybody dies.
我喜欢英国电影里的激进现实主义 I love kitchen sink realism that you get in British movies.
我觉得当有些东西真正感动你的时候 你也会喜欢 I think you also like it when something gets to you.
事实就是这样 This is what sticks.
看电影可以为了娱乐 也可以是逃避现实 It's okay to watch movies to be entertained and escape reality,
但是罗伊·安德森的电影 给你带来思想上的挑战 but with a Roy Andersson movie, you get something to sink your teeth in
得到一些伴随你走下去的想法 and something that you carry with you.
就像我说的 这... Like I said, this is...
你的三部曲已经拍了很多年了 You've worked on this trilogy for many years now.
你对“存在”更愤世嫉俗了吗？ 还是更悲观了呢？ Have you gotten a more cynical or darker view of existence?
- 我希望不是愤世嫉俗 - “愤世嫉俗”这个词不太准确 但... - Not cynical, I hope. - I was wrong to say "cynical", but...
我觉得这充满了对人类的同情 I think that it's pretty empathetic,
尽管这跟他所描述的东西大相庭径 even though they're far from how we would like to be described.
- 他在这里听着这首歌 - 一遍又一遍 - He's listening to this song here. - Over and over again.
另一个人说“这不正常 我很担心你” And the other one says: "This isn't normal. I'm worried about you."
“我也很担心自己” 他说道 "So am I," he says.
那么.. Well...
像我说的 我在这样的环境里长大 在廉价旅馆里 Like I said, I grew up in this environment, with flophouses.
当时还不叫廉价旅馆 It wasn't flophouses then, but later on.
我认识的很多人都住在这样的地方 I know a great deal about people who live in those places.
他们很多是离了婚的人 或有酗酒问题的 They're often divorced, have drinking problems.
蹲过监狱 孤独伶仃 They've been in prison and are lonely.
- 局外人 - 对 - Outsiders. - Oh yes.
就像贝克特的《等待戈多》 And just like in Beckett's Waiting for Godot,
跟我们很相似 they're also very similar to the rest of us.
他们表现了我们存在的框架 They show the framework of our existence.
我们日常所谈论的都是扯淡 Most of what we talk about is just nonsense.
《等待戈多》里 扯了三个小时的淡 In Waiting for Godot, you have three hours of nonsense,
但也不妨碍它有趣 and it never stops being interesting.
我在这儿写了点东西 我们要到哪里去？ I wrote something here: Where are we headed?
这可能是永恒的 但你是一位敏锐的观察者 This might be timeless, but you're a keen observer of things.
你在瑞典看新闻或读点什么东西的时候 When you watch the news and read about things here in Sweden,
会不会感到我们在走下坡路？ does it feel like we're on a downward trajectory?
- 不 我只是... 社会保障体系崩溃了 - No, I just... - Social safety nets dissolving.
我观察态度 人们描述事物的方式和谈论的方式 I look at attitudes, how things are described and how people talk.
都是谎言 没有诚实可言 It's all lies. There's no honesty anywhere,
但我们描述自己的时候 when we describe ourselves,
事情该怎么发展 怎样才能开心 怎样管理你银行账户 how things should be, how to be happy and manage your bank accounts.
都是导致我们不幸的白日梦 It's all a pipe dream that leads to unhappiness.
这个男人在寻找灵魂 是吗？ Here's a man who is doing some soul-searching, right?
他可能七十左右 感觉自己归期将至 He could be around 70 and feels he's getting close to death.
他一辈子都不开心 He's been unhappy all his life
当他意识到这一切都是因为他太吝啬 and now he realizes it was because he was so stingy.
对我来说 这是关乎我们存在的核心 To me, this is a key line about our existence.
人们太过关注自己的成功和幸福 People are fixated on their own success and happiness,
以为能带来快乐的东西 其实却引向不幸 thinking it will make them happy, but it really leads to unhappiness.
这就是通过这一幕想表达的东西 That's what I tried to get out of this scene.
我很想成为一个作家 一个新时代的加缪 I really wanted to be a writer, a new Albert Camus.
《局外人》是一部杰出的小说 The Stranger is an amazing novel,
有一个场景发生在丹吉尔，阿尔及利亚 with a scene that takes place in Tangier, in Algeria.
他站在窗边，向外看 He's standing in the window, looking out.
他的情人刚刚离开，而且他依然能闻到她的香水味 His mistress has just left and he can still smell her perfume.
他向窗外看着丹吉尔的人们，或者说是阿尔及利亚的人们 He's looking out at the people in Tangier, or maybe Algiers.
当我读到这里的时候，那个场景让我久久不能忘怀 That scene stuck with me when I read it.
那是一种阿尔贝·加缪类型的场景 This scene is an Albert Camus scene.
书中并没有女人，因为她已经离开了 It didn't have a woman in the background, she had already left.
而我在电影中将那个女人留下了，因为我觉得这样很美，或者说是更美了 I had the woman stay and I think it's just as beautiful, or even more beautiful.
等下，我们又发现一些东西 Suddenly, we get something
这使得场景的感情更加丰富多彩了 that has a more colorful feel to it.
他看起来若头所思，但这两个人很幸福的样子 He looks thoughtful here, but these are two happy people.
嗯，他们就是两个自然人 Well, they're two physical people.
我的人生观认为肉体上的亲密就是... My philosophy of life is that physical intimacy is...
这又是什么，没开玩笑吧？ What else is there, really?
这真的令人吃惊，你得去精心策划 It's amazing to have that, and you need to nurture it.
- 这群疯子回来了 - 他们是醉鬼吗？ - Here our maniacs are returning. - Is this the hangover?
这些可怜虫，竟然被战争吸引 Poor bastards, lured off to war.
这是常有的事 It's often the case around the world.
年轻人总被流行牵着鼻子走，他们不是为这个吵就是为那个 Young men are lured by buzzwords, they'll be fighting for this or that.
有时候争论的是正确的，但也有时候屁都不是 Sometimes it's true, sometimes it's just bullshit.
但这些还是会让人们陷入斗争中 But they still get people to these battlefields.
一战就是最糟糕的例子 World War I was the worst one of all,
成千上万的人被屠杀 when they were slaughtered by the thousands
在弗兰德斯还有...是这样的 in Flanders and... yeah.
现在他们回来了，怎么会这样？ Now they're returning, and why is that?
他们经过这间酒吧，奔赴战场 They went off to war in front of this bar,
而且我们再次见到了他们，这是一种比喻，一种夸张手法 and we see them again. It's a metaphor, an exaggeration.
其实历史并不是这样发生的，查尔斯十二世并没有回到20世纪 It didn't happen like this. Charles XII didn't return in the 20th century.
这就是穿越 This is called an anachronism.
当时我想到了那幅画，运送查尔斯十二遗体的那幅 （油画名字是Bringing Home the Body of Charles XII） I was thinking about that famous painting, Charles XII's funeral transport.
我觉得这样很有趣 I think this is just funny,
能用这种方式来描绘瑞典的历史 depicting Sweden's history this way.
可能会让学历史的学生感到困惑吧 It's a bit troubling for students of history.
他们可能会说"天啊，他并没有在那个年代打仗回来" "My God, he didn't return from war at that time,"
"还在一个现代酒吧里，外边就是松德比贝里（瑞典地名）" "in a modern bar, outside Sundbyberg."
不是这样的，这只是一种瑞典人的心态还有一点自我形象而已 No, but it's about the Swedish mentality and self-image.
这些场景是关于瑞典人的形象 These scenes are about the Swedish self-image.
瑞典作为一个强国形象，还有它的国王，查尔斯十二世 The Swedish Empire, Charles XII and Sweden as a great power.
- 这样就算是打脸了 - 哦哦，是的 - Beating one's chest. - Oh yes.
然后这里就有了失败和耻辱 Then there was defeat and shame.
这里让人感到惊喜是因为... What's amazing here is...
在您之前的两部电影中，并没用这种手法 In the first two movies, you didn't use this touch.
而这种运用简直棒极了 It's amazing how well it works.
我们会很买账的 We actually buy this.
这间酒吧像是50或者60年代的风格 This bar looks like something from the 50s or 60s,
而且这里还出现了查尔斯十二世，这真的... and here we have Charles XII. It's just...
你当时能肯定这样拍会奏效吗？ Could you be sure this would work?
我是这么认为的，对我来说很奏效，但我还是有点小失望的 I thought so, it works for me. But I'm a bit disappointed
就是颁发金甲虫奖的那些人似乎不买账 that it didn't work for the people who give out Guldbagge Awards.
他们似乎没发觉这是多么高品质 They couldn't see the quality in this.
这让我很吃惊很沮丧 I thought that was shockingly bad.
他们没发现其中的含金量 They didn't see the quality in this.
但是，你还是在威尼斯拿到金狮奖了 But still, you got the Golden Lion in Venice.
你觉得能拿到金狮奖是理所当然，因为你也认为这是部很棒的电影 You felt certain you'd get it. You knew it's a great movie.
我已经为之奋斗很多年了 I've been working with this for so many years.
我能看出导演，美术，影像的含金量在哪儿 I can see the quality in direction, art and images.
不自大的说，我真能看到这些闪光点 Without being conceited, I can see the quality in this.
金甲虫奖评委不认可这些，真的让我感到很失望 It was a bit of a disappointment that the Guldbagge people didn't see it.
- 还在介怀吗？- 不不，结果还是好的 - Does it sting? - No, it was good in a way.
但是他们竟然也没看到图像的闪光点，连这个都没有 But they didn't even see the photo quality, not even that.
正好我们可以揭发他们能力欠缺这一方面 It's good that we can reveal their lack of competence.
没关系 It doesn't even matter.
我们会凭借这部电影在海外广受赞誉 We'll get enormous credit abroad for this movie.
你写电影脚本用了多长时间？ How long did you work on the script?
你还在拍之前的电影的时候，就已经想到这些点子了吗？ Are these ideas you had when making the other movies?
你有把想到的点子全都否定，然后再去找更适合的吗？ Did you pull them out and tried to fit them in?
亦或者都是在你拍完《你还活着》之后？ Or are they from after You, the Living?
是在《你还活着》之后写的这些场景还是在之前？ Did you write these scenes after You, the Living, or is it older stuff?
大多数是在那部之后 Most of it came later.
还有一些在后来很及时地想到了 Some scenes go back in time.
在片子最后有个场景，讲的是殖民时期 There's a scene at the end, from the colonial period,
当那些英国人...我们一会儿会看到 when the British... We'll get to that.
但不然的话... But otherwise...
不对，我想大多数想法都是在《你还活着》之后 No, I think it's mostly stuff from after You, the Living.
- 这又是另外一个表达幸福的镜头 - 对 - Here's another happy scene. - Yes.
这个场景就很显然的是受到艺术史的启发 A scene like this is clearly inspired by art history.
有个叫米勒的法国画家 There was this French painter called Millet.
他描述了农民的生活 He depicted peasant life
而且他有幅很棒的画，画的是一对农民情侣 and he did a wonderful painting of a young peasant couple,
在干草堆的阴影下午休 taking a midday nap in the shadow of a haystack.
你可以断定天气一定很热，所以他们在阴影下休憩 You can tell that it's really hot, so they have to nap in the shade.
由于天气太热，背景里的马和驴都表现得很痛苦 It's so hot that the horses and donkeys in the background are suffering.
但这对情侣在阴凉处 But the couple is in the shade.
50或者70年后出现了梵高 Van Gogh came about 50 or 70 years later.
他也看到了那幅画，而且想画幅类似的 He'd seen this painting and wanted to do one just like it.
所以他也画了幅在干草堆的阴凉里午休的情侣 He also painted a couple napping in the shadow of a haystack.
但是梵高把人物丑化了 But van Gogh made them look ugly.
不再是漂亮而美好的人在睡觉 It's not beautiful people sleeping.
梵高的人物张着嘴... Their mouths are open...
我很敬佩梵高能在那样的场景里发现美 I really liked how van Gogh could see the beauty in the situation.
年轻人在干草堆的阴凉里打盹 Young people napping in the shadow of a haystack.
多美的主题 What a beautiful motif.
你可以问问所有世界上有权势的那些人 You could ask all the potentates around the world,
银行董事，亿万富翁，王子和总统们 bank directors, billionaires, princes and presidents.
能想象出 Can you imagine anything more beautiful
比干草堆的阴凉里打盹的情侣更美的画面吗？ than a couple napping in the shadow of a haystack?
不会的，我觉得他们到最后都找不到 No, I don't think they can until it's too late.
我想问问，你在哪儿拍的这个镜头？ I have to ask, where did you shoot this scene?
- 我们在自己的制片厂拍的 - 那火车呢？ - We did it here in our studio. - And the train?
那是我们插入进去的 We actually inserted it.
那是我们为数不多用特效的一次。 It's one of the few times where we used effects.
那是现代化的火车...你们怎么叫这个？ It's actually a model train... What do you call it?
- Märklin？（一种火车名字）- 类似的吧 - Märklin? - Something like that.
就是说这是一个现代化的火车，而且是被后期插入的？ So it's a model train that's been inserted later?
现代科技是可以做到的 You can do that with modern technology.
- 那么你是不介意用特效的对吗？ - 是的，不介意 - So you don't mind using that? - Oh no.
- 我不是一个传统的热 - 电影感觉起来会很有组织性... - I'm not orthodox in any way. - The movie feels very organic...
是的，我也是真么认为的 Yeah, I think so, too.
能做到这个火车我真的很高兴 I'm really happy we managed to get to train.
就是说这都是制片厂拍摄的，而且还有着惊人的深度 So it's all studio work, with this amazing depth.
而且我们的两个伙计还继续着他们绝望的生活之旅 And our duo continue their hopeless journey through life.
是啊... Yeah...
这个场景让我想到什么 This scene made me think of something.
我记起来你是怎么建造出整个站台还有火车 I remember how you built an entire train platform and train cars
仅仅为了一个人被门夹到的镜头 just for a scene about a man who gets his finger caught in a door.
而这次，你造了个凉亭还有一个露天咖啡馆 This time, you've built a kiosk and an open-air café
也就为了演一个鞋里有石子的女人 just for a woman who has a pebble in her shoe.
- 这不是很妙吗？ - 确实 - Isn't that nice? - It is nice.
我是这么认为的，真的很棒 I think so. It's so nice.
而且还显得很幽默 Then you get humor here.
你爱上了一个倒鞋里石子的女孩儿 You fall in love with the girl trying to get rid of the pebble.
真的很有爱 It's just so lovely.
把什么东西放到了如此美丽的生命的鞋里 You have this beautiful creature with something in her shoe.
- 他同意你的观点... - 是的，这很棒 - He agrees with you... - Yeah, it's great.
这对男女有麻烦了 This couple has problems of their own.
我觉得他俩看起来像罪犯，就是这个想法 I think they look like criminals. That was the idea.
一对罪犯情侣，在中午休息 A criminal couple who are off in the middle of the day.
是的... Yeah...
他们坐在这里... We see them sitting here...
我们能把他们看做是很有爱的角色吗？ Are we supposed to see them as lonely souls?
可以...我之前是怎么说的？ Yes... What did I say earlier?
在全宇宙中暴露自己 Exposed to the universe.
你就被暴露在其中了 You're exposed.
非常容易受伤 Very vulnerable.
很脆弱，暴露而且... Vulnerable, exposed and...
那还有希望可言吗？ So is there any hope?
当然，对人和蔼，友好，换位思考都会带来希望 Yes, there is hope of being kind, friendly and empathetic
只要你能做到，但是没有好的结局 for as long as you can, but there's no hope of a happy end.
我们任何一个人都不会有个好的结束 None of us will get a happy end.
都会有悲伤的结局在等我们 We're all headed for sad endings.
我们不是死于未知，就是死于疾病 Either we die without knowing it or we die from illness.
这不是什么积极的信息，但我们还是有生命感的 That's not anything optimistic, but while we still have some life in us,
我们应该尽力去试着感同身受，待人友善 we should try to be empathetic and kind.
如果不这样，我们的结局就会像酒吧里那个男人一样说道 If not, we'll end up like the man in the bar who said:
"我一辈子都是这么小气，这也是我不幸福的原因" "I've been stingy all my life. That's why I'm so unhappy."
可怜鬼，他并没有早点儿意识到这一点 Poor bastard, that he didn't realize it earlier.
他真是个可怜虫 He's a poor bastard.
对于绝对的无知，这没什么可辩解的 There's no defending it, being totally unaware.
这里有个例子就是讲你是如何把这些场景联系起来的 Here is an example of how you connect many of the scenes.
我们还记得在短小而有力的镜头里的弗洛门戈舞者 We remember the flamenco dancer from that short and powerful scene.
这里是另外一个，他没表达任何信息 Here's another one. He doesn't have any messages.
对我们而言，这也许只是"好吧，没人打给我" To us, it could just be: "Okay, nobody called."
但好像接下来他就会死去，她也是 But it seems like a death blow for him, and for her as well.
没人需要她 She isn't wanted by anyone.
他走在街角，跟前一个场景一模一样 He walks around the corner here. It was the same in the previous scene.
难以置信地孤独 Incredible loneliness.
在这我写了几句话，你怎样用渺小的事物去描述大事件 I wrote something here, how you depict big things using small things.
应该就是在你真正了解它的时候 When you really understand what it is.
- 街道拍摄的很漂亮，奥韦 - 是的 - It's a great shot of the street, Ove. - Yes.
又到了走廊这里 Here we are in the hallway.
这就是... This is just...
- 是廉价旅馆 - 是的 - It's the flophouse. - Yeah.
我是看着劳雷尔与哈迪长大的 I grew up with Laurel and Hardy.
奥利佛·哈迪和斯坦·劳雷尔 Oliver Hardy and Stan Laurel.
对我而言，他们是我认为最悲情的角色 To me, they are the saddest characters I can think of,
而且看上去还很滑稽 while still being hilarious to watch.
我试着像他们一样有趣 I've tried to be as funny as them.
很难达到那个水平 It's hard to get to that level,
但那就是我的灵感来源，还有堂吉诃德和他的随从桑丘 but that's my inspiration, as well as Don Quixote and Sancho Panza.
来谈谈劳雷尔和哈迪吧 Let's talk about Laurel and Hardy.
我还小的时候，看到他们摔屁墩儿觉得很有趣 When I was young, it was just funny to watch them fall on their butts.
- 不是吧... - 这里你看出悲伤了吗？ - No... - You see sadness there?
哦，是的，还有这段 Oh yes, even back then.
我觉得他们应该是很悲伤的，尽管表现的很滑稽 I thought they were very sad, while being funny.
我很抱歉，乔纳森 I'm sorry, Jonathan.
你能原谅我吗？ Can you forgive me?
劳雷尔，就是一直在哭的那个人，他迷路了 Laurel, the one who cries all the time, he's lost.
但另一个胖家伙，哈迪... But the fat one, Hardy...
他总想着在社会上提升地位 He's always trying to move up a notch in society.
他总试着取悦上流人士和中产阶级，想爬上社会的阶梯... He tries to please the upper and middle class, to climb the social ladder...
- 把弄着他的领带... - 对 - Fiddling with his tie... - Right.
他真是一个悲情的角色 He's a really sad character.
他有的只有悲情 He's really nothing but sad.
那是你的反英雄式人物但还是你的英雄... These are your anti-heroes, or your heroes...
对 That's right.
- 他们最后变得会像你期望的那样吗？ - 我想是的 - Did they turn out like you'd hoped? - I think so.
- 你的销售伙伴？ - 是的 - Your sales duo? - Yes.
我们唯一能看到的问题是其中有个人受伤了 The only problem was that the one we see here got injured.
在镜头里我们得表现出来，他走路是有问题的 We had to include that in the scenes, him having trouble walking.
不是刻意而为之的 It wasn't meant to be like that.
总会有些人制定法律 There's always someone laying down the law.
- 权威的声音 - 一种谴责 - The voice of authority. - A reprimand.
说的好 - 谴责 It's a great word - reprimand.
在《二楼传来的歌声》里，你也有这样走廊的镜头，还有许多门 In Songs, you also have a hallway scene with doors.
人们从房间向里看或者是向外看 People looking out or looking in.
- 难道不是很沮丧吗？ -是这样的 - Isn't it quite depressing? - Sure.
晚上10点或者11点就没灯光了 You had lights out at 10 or 11 p.m.
这是廉价旅馆，不是舒适的酒店，你得听从指挥 It's a flophouse, not a proper hotel. You have to toe the line.
我觉得他们是会提供早餐的 I think they even serve breakfast.
我没住过这样的地方，但我有个哥哥住过 I haven't lived in a place like this, but I had a brother who did.
这是一个很自信的男人 Here's a self-confident man.
我今天已经表现得很友好了 I feel kind today.
但还得说他也是个失败者 But he's also a loser.
我喜欢你用通过那个女人表现这一信息的方式 I like how you have her make that clear.
哦，是的，他也无权管她 Oh yes. He doesn't have any authority with her.
- 看这个... - 她觉得他是个可怜虫 - Watch this... - She sees him as a poor bastard.
尽管她在这里谋生计，却也不把他放在眼里 She works there to earn a living, but she doesn't respect him at all.
- 别忘了... - 很棒的一个镜头 - Let's not forget... - It's a great shot.
- 你拥有一支很棒的团队... - 多棒的镜头 - You have an amazing team... - What a shot!
有你的电影制作团队 They work on your movies.
你有什么工作上的沟通良方吗 Do you have a good working dialogue,
就像，你知道的，在你指导事情往好的方向发展的时候 so that you know when you're getting things right?
你知道，不管怎么样，或者说你需要去询问想法的正确与否吗 Do you know anyway, or do you need to ask if it feels right?
我跟团队一直是保持着极近距离的接触和沟通 I have extremely close contact with the team.
他们帮我创造出了这些镜头 They help me create these scenes.
我几乎在每个细节上都会询问他们的意见 I ask them about almost every detail.
这真是合作的成果 It's a very collaborative effort,
即使最终对所有事负责的都是我 even if I'm ultimately responsible for the whole thing.
但我真的得到团队的大力帮助 But I get a great deal of help from the team.
他们相当优秀 They're very good.
很多观众对这个镜头提出反响，这镜头让他们感到不安 A lot of people reacted to this scene. It's very unpleasant.
有只猴子在这里，那这个故事在讲什么？ The monkey here, what's the story there?
猴子实际上是机器人 It's actually a robot.
这是我们最贵的道具了，价值150,000克朗 One of the most expensive things we had, I think it was SEK 150,000.
- 就是说它是为电影而制作的？ - 是的 - So it was built for the movie? - Yes.
但是很值了 But it was worth it.
我花了大把时间读了关于动物实验的东西 I've spent a lot of time reading up on animal testing.
我曾做过一个关于艾滋病的电影... I did work on an AIDS film...
是的，这只猴子就让我想到了那部电影 That's right, the monkey actually made me think of that film.
这也是为什么我会知道如何做动物实验的原因 That's why I know a lot about how animals have been used for testing.
那是一个我了解很多的领域 It's a subject that I know a lot about.
这里只是一个更平和的实验 This is a mild example of what's been done.
当在其他生命体上做开发的时候，人类是很恐怖的 Humans are horrible when it comes to exploiting other creatures.
这里讲的是"智人" It said "Homo sapiens" there.
现在我们看到这里，当时我不得不寻求技术援助 Now we get to this. I have to ask about the technical aspect.
你是怎么做成这个那以置信的铜柱的？ How did you get this incredible copper cylinder?
你肯定不相信，我们真的做成了那种尺寸 You won't believe it, but it's actually life-size.
我们做的就是实物大小 We made it life-size.
我们在斯德哥尔摩做了个模型 We did a model of it here in Stockholm.
这个...你怎么称呼它？ The actual... what do you call it?
在卡尔斯塔德做的内部修饰 The interior was made in Karlstad.
我们还得把它船运到奥斯陆进行最后完工 We had to ship it and finish it in Oslo.
奥斯陆有个飞机机库 There was an airplane hangar in Oslo,
那个夏天可以供我们使用 that was available that summer.
挪威当地资助了这部电影 Norway helped finance the movie,
所以我们在挪威花了些钱，这很重要 so it was important that we spent some of the money in Norway.
这也是为什么我们在挪威，在奥斯陆拍摄那些镜头 That's why we did that scene in Norway, in Oslo,
还有那个供我们使用的飞机库 in the hangar that was available.
当时是在福尼布，现在已经关闭了 It was at Fornebu, which is closed now.
而这些就是你取景的地方，还有你实物大小的铜柱 And that's where you filmed this, with this life-size copper cylinder.
但背景其实是模拟合成布景 But the background is actually a miniature set
是在后期嵌入背景的 which was inserted into the background.
那应该是种 It's supposed to be a blend
非洲草原与西西里岛柳树群的混搭 of African savanna and Scanian willows.
是有意而为之的混搭，所以你不会认出这场景到底是在什么地方 It's a purposeful blend, so you don't really know where it is.
是什么激发你的灵感去做这么个难以置信的铜家伙？ What inspired you to make this incredible copper model?
关于材质的选择 As far as the material,
我从希罗宁姆斯·博希和布吕格尔那里得到灵感（希罗宁姆斯·博希怪诞派绘画大师） I got that from Hieronymus Bosch and Bruegel.
他们都是16至17世纪佛兰德的画家 They were Flemish painters in the 16th and 17th century.
他们画了各种各样稀奇古怪的乐器... They have all kinds of weird-looking instruments...
- 这些喇叭... - 我从希罗宁姆斯·博希那里得到灵感 - Those trumpets... - I got those from Hieronymus Bosch.
但是基本思想 But the basic idea for doing this
来源于亚述人... comes from the Assyrians...
亚述人...你怎么称呼这个？ The Assyrian... what do you call it?
亚述人在公元前500年的美索不达米亚 The Assyrians had a period of greatness
有段辉煌的时期 500 years B.C., in Mesopotamia.
他们以对投降敌人的残暴而知名 They were known for being cruel to vanquished enemies.
他们就会做这样的设备 They would design these devices
就在那里折磨投降的敌人 where they would torture vanquished enemies.
敌人被折磨发出的尖叫声被做成其他东西 They would scream and the screams would be made into something else.
当有人因为疼痛而大哭的时候，你可以听到一种鸭子叫的声音 When someone cried out in pain, you could get the sound of a duck,
这就使得亚述人开怀大笑 and everyone would laugh at it.
还有一个更糟糕的版本 There's another version that's almost worse.
大概公元500年，在西西里 In Sicily, about 500 A.D.,
一个王子或者是一个国王委托人做一个"黄铜牛" a prince or king commissioned a "brazen bull".
那是一种黄铜做成的实物大小的牛 It's a life-size bull made from brass plate.
可以放一个人进牛肚中然后放火烧牛的底部 You would put a person inside the bull and light a fire underneath it.
然后黄铜牛就会...你还可以换下牛的喉舌 Then the bull would... You could change out the mouthpiece,
所以你既可以听美妙的音乐，也可以听像牛一样的叫声 and either get beautiful music or the bellowing of a bull.
这是一个人类历史上有关于的创造力，施虐 This is an example of human ingenuity, sadism,
和缺乏同情心的例子 and lack of empathy throughout history.
我仍为对人们所做的那一切感到悲伤 I can still feel bad about this being done to people.
上边印有"波利顿"，这什么意思？ Here it says "Boliden". Why's that?
呃... 波利顿... Well, Boliden...
那是一家从矿石 It's a company that extracts
提取贵重金属的公司 precious metals from ore.
他们做了有很多年了 They've been doing it for many years.
自波利顿发现发现金矿那时起，波利顿公司就已经成立了 Boliden got started when gold was discovered around Boliden.
然后发展成为世界上最富有的公司之一 It's grown to one of the world's richest companies.
他们从瑞典矿石中提取金，银还有各种金属材料 They extract gold, silver and all kinds of minerals from Swedish ore.
直到最近几年前 Up until a few years ago,
公司在处理废渣，废物和户外丢弃物时违法了 it was against the law to deposit the slag, the waste products, outdoors.
你可以看到巨大的成堆的毒副产品和渣滓 You had these enormous piles of toxic by-products, slag.
他们要么得把这些加工处理掉，要么得运走 They had to either process it or ship it out.
波利顿的解决方案是付钱给一家智利的公司 Boliden's solution was to pay a Chilean company,
然后就可以把废物运去智利并且处置掉 that would ship it to Chile and dispose of it.
智利的公司一拿到钱，他们就把公司关闭了 Once the Chilean company got paid, they closed the company in Chile
然后把随后的麻烦事束之高阁 and walked away from the problem.
结果就是，你可以在智利的某个城市看到巨大成堆的废弃物和废渣 As a result, you got these giant piles of slag outside a city in Chile.
这些金属材料让智利的儿童很着迷 The children there were fascinated by the material.
他们在废弃物上玩 They would play in the material,
那些废弃物比沙子还要柔软 which was softer than sand.
然后那些孩子的结果就是一个个病得很严重 They ended up getting really sick.
他们因此留下了终生疾患 They got life-long ailments from it.
女孩儿们变得不孕或者生下畸形儿 The girls would become infertile or have deformed children.
有800名儿童受到严重影响 800 children ended up being seriously affected.
智利的这个城市认为 The city in Chile thought
波利顿公司应该为那些受伤严重的人 that Boliden should help pay for the hospital care
支付医疗费用 for the people who had been seriously injured.
但波利顿公司拒绝这么做 But Boliden refused.
他们声称"我们已经把那些卖给智利公司了" They said: "We sold it to the Chilean company."
"是他们拿到钱没履行职责，不该我们负责" "They got paid and didn't meet their obligations. We're not responsible."
"生意就是生意，其他的不是我们该关心的" "Business is business, it's not our concern."
我认为这是非常令人愤恨的 I think that was incredibly cynical.
这几年，波利顿公司的年利润 During those years, Boliden had yearly profits
至少10亿克朗 of at least SEK 1 billion.
他们从没有给那些受伤的人任何补偿 They wouldn't even compensate the people who got hurt.
简直太... It's just so...
这是瑞典企业在世界各地经营中的一个污点 It's a stain on Swedish businesses operating around the world.
当你这么做了，那也是人性的一个污点 It's a stain on humanity when you act like that.
他们应该承担责任然后一切都被曝光 They should be held accountable and be exposed.
铜柱上的并不是他们的标识，只是名字 It's not their logo, but their name.
实际上也不是公司的名字，只是那个地方的名字 - 波利顿 It's actually not the company name, but the name of a place - Boliden.
场景其实是我们的英雄之一做的一个噩梦 And it's actually one of our heroes having a nightmare.
就像我一样，他也对这些事感到不满 Just like me, he feels bad about these things.
我对历史上发生的事情感到不满 I feel bad about what has happened throughout history.
这也是我称之为的"历史污点" I feel what I call "historical guilt".
而这就是一个关于历史污点的例子 This is an example of historical guilt.
我觉得波利顿的管理者是不会有好下场的 I think the management of Boliden won't come to a happy end in life.
这件事的阴影会一直笼罩他们 They have this hanging over them.
他们的后半生的不幸是应得的 They deserve to be unhappy for the rest of their lives,
直到他们改正这一切，这话说得很刺耳，但事实就是这么回事 until they make good on this. It's harsh, but that's how it is.
我们已经接近尾声了，我还很好奇你的三部曲 We're getting towards the end and I'm curious about your trilogy.
那个大概是什么意思呢，是艺术或者工作的一部分吗？ What is it supposed to be, apart from a work of art?
还是一个警钟 Is it also a wake-up call
或者是对人类缺点和恶意的反映？ or just a reflection on human shortcomings and malice?
我认为用艺术去表达艺术史 I think that artistic expressions throughout art history
这本身就是很重要的 are important in and of themselves.
这唤醒了对人性的尊重 They arouse respect for humanity,
但你同时也得把事件指明 but you also have to point things out.
我认为艺术不能完全与政治无关 I think that art can't be completely apolitical.
我们刚才看到资产阶级观赏人们被烤 We could see the bourgeoisie watching people getting cooked.
对，是这样 Oh yes.
艺术不能与道德责任相分离 Art can't separate itself from moral responsibility.
是的，不能 Oh no...
应该用艺术应去指出不负责的行为... Art is supposed to point out irresponsible behavior...
不能隐瞒事实去取悦观众 It shouldn't hide things or cozy up to people.
我想用艺术去澄清事实 I want art to clarify things.
应该开阔观众的眼界 It should open people's eyes
对于什么是重要的，什么是丑陋的，正确或不正确，道德与非道德的 to what's important, ugly, true or not true, immoral or moral.
艺术能够很诚实而且并无恶意地去袒露一个人的下体 Art can do that when it's honest and unveils the nakedness of man.
人们就只是观看...我来聊举一例 You can just look at... I'll use a crude example.
蒙娜丽莎，伦勃朗的蒙娜丽莎 （译注：此处存疑，有说伦勃朗是此画作者。或为口误。伦勃朗是欧洲17世纪最伟大的画家，荷兰人） Mona Lisa, Rembrandt's Mona Lisa.
在艺术史上起到什么作用？ What's its function in art history?
嗯...是画了一个人的肖像， Well, it's about someone having painted this portrait
非常细致还很漂亮 so very carefully and beautifully.
它唤起了对人类的尊重 It arouses respect for being human.
描绘了她如何放置她的手 It's about how she's positioning her hands,
她的发型，眼睛还有面部表情信息 her hairstyle, her eyes and facial expression.
就是那么... It's just so...
你也知道生命是短暂的， And you know that existence is fleeting,
就像她的美貌，只能持续几年时间而已 like her beauty that only lasts a few years.
太美了以至于唤起了对存在物体的尊重 It's so beautiful that it arouses respect for existence.
是艺术史上唤起对人类尊敬的 It's one of the most important functions of art,
最重要的一步 to arouse respect for humanity.
我知道的，在观影前我们也是讨论过的 I know I've talked about this before when we've watched your movies,
但埃尔默·迪克图纽斯有句话说得好 but Elmer Diktonius had his great saying:
"如果艺术能够使你麻木，那么当头棒击的艺术才称得上是最好的" "If art should numb you, a blow to the head would be the best art."
说得真好 That's well said.
- 确实是这样的，对吗？ - 是的 - It is, right? - Oh yes.
这让我想到了约翰·列侬，我知道鲍勃·迪伦才是你心中最棒的（都是著名音乐人） This made me think of John Lennon. I know Dylan is your number 1,
但这让我想到了列侬美妙的歌词 but it made me think of Lennon's wonderful lyrics:
"当我们为生活疲于奔命时，生活已经离我们远去" "Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans."
这里就想表达类似的想法，这真的很矛盾 There's something to that. It's really a contradiction...
"当我们为生活疲于奔命时，生活已经..." "Life is what happens to you while you're busy..."
他想知道今天是几号，而且还为此迷茫了 He's wondering what day it is and seems confused.
他没做什么重要的事情，但是生活却在继续 He's not on top of things, but life just moves on.
这就让我想到了列侬那句格言 It just made me think of that Lennon quote.
也许我是错的，但我喜欢... Maybe I'm wrong, but I like...
奥韦，这画面看起来棒极了 Ove, the picture looks really nice.
奥韦？之前做过这样的画质吗？ Ove? Did we have this picture quality before?
我把灯光调暗，这就增强了对比度 I turned the lights down and it brought out the contrasts.
看起来棒极了 It looks great.
我们曾讨论过要买个4K投影仪 We've talked about buying a 4K projector,
但这效果看起来就像4K投影仪做的 but this looks great as it is.
说到了约翰·列侬... When it comes to John Lennon...
我可以引用一句很有名的诗或者习语 I could quote a very important poem or phrase,
而且很适合我 which really applies to me.
"成为工人阶级英雄是唯一选择" "A working class hero is something to be."
对... Yeah...
"成为工人阶级英雄是了不起的" "A working class hero is something to be."
我觉得这真是...我很同意他的观点 I think that's... I agree with him.
就好像... It felt a bit like...
就像电影的结尾... It's like the ending of the movie is...
出现了一个亮点，寄托了希望 There's a bright spot and something to hope for.
希望如此，他们站在那里很有爱 I hope so. They look lovely standing there.
他们真的很可爱，给人惊喜 They're just so lovely. It's amazing.
我们听到这首歌，山区乡村摇滚乐 Then we have this song, it's a rockabilly song.
这也是你的习惯吗？ Is it an old favorite of yours?
知道这是什么吗？几乎是个秘密 Do you know what it is? It's almost a secret.
是影片《维莉迪安娜》的片尾曲 It's the closing music from Viridiana.
布努埃尔的《维莉迪安娜》 Buñuel's Viridiana.
并没有提到这点... It doesn't say that...
我选用它向布努埃尔致敬 I used it as an homage to Buñuel.
在酒吧那段，查尔斯十二世行军时唱的就是这首 It's played in the bar before Charles XII enters, the same song.
是为了向布努埃尔的《维莉迪安娜》致敬 It's an homage to Buñuel's Viridiana.
- 还是首朦胧的山区乡村摇滚乐 - 50年代的歌 - And it's an obscure rockabilly song. - From the 50s.
我记不得歌名，也没那么有名 （译注：歌名是《Shimmy Doll》） I can't remember the name, but it's not all that famous.
歌曲在这里很受用而且在《维莉迪安娜》中也表现惊人 It works great here and it's amazing in Viridiana.
- 我家有那部电影套装 - 你应该看一看 - I have the box set at home. - You should watch it.
我看过的，很久之前了 I've seen it, a long time ago.
让我们来结束吧，这简直太令人吃惊了 Let's wrap this up. This has been amazing.
我们期待您下一部电影，正在制作中了吧 We look forward to your next movie, which is in the works.
在此我们先留个悬念 We can add that as a cliffhanger here.
- 当然了 - 对此我很期待 - Absolutely. - I'm excited to see it.
应该比悬念更让人吃惊的 It should be more surprising than a cliffhanger.
会非常非常令人惊喜 It should be very, very surprising.
我认为是这样 I think so.
那太棒了 It's been great.
- 这样完美了吗，奥韦? - 是的 - Good enough, Ove? - Yes.